By Gwendolyn Craig
Access to Great Camp Santanoni in the town of Newcomb has been a “big disappointment” to some people with disabilities, but the state Department of Environmental Conservation is working to rectify that.
In a request for information released Thursday, the department is seeking potential horse-and-driver teams for a new wheelchair-accessible wagon. The DEC also wants feedback on the area’s conditions and services.
Great Camp Santanoni, the only publicly owned retreat of its kind in the 6-million-acre Adirondack Park, is required to be accessible for people with disabilities from May through October. The requirement is part of a 2001 settlement between the state and a Warrensburg resident, Ted Galusha, who, with two others, sued the state under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).
Getting to the historic camp involves a 5-mile trip through forest preserve by non-motorized methods such as hiking, biking, skiing and horseback riding or horse and wagon.
Although the camp’s website advertises an ADA-accessible horse-drawn wagon, Brant Lake resident Scott Remington said the operator DEC contracted with has refused to haul it. Remington, who is a member of the DEC and Adirondack Park Agency’s Accessibility Advisory Committee and has a mobility disability after a logging accident, said the committee had planned a field trip to the great camp but was unable to go because no one could operate the new wagon.
The wagon the operator was hitching, which non-disabled people may ride for $40 per person, is not wheelchair accessible. Remington called it “a big disappointment” and wondered how the state could buy a wagon and not have anyone to operate it.
“That’s discrimination in my eyes,” he said.
The state has also made wheelchair ramps at the great camp, but without the accessible wagon, wheelchair users cannot get to them, Remington said.
Whitehall farmer Larry Newcombe, 71, the bidder who won the transportation contract, said it proved too difficult. The new, heavy wagon poses too much of a risk for his horses and riders on the sloping terrain, he said. He said he has tried to make the contract work, even purchasing Newcomb property and putting a cabin on it to have a base near the Santanoni camp. He used his own wagon and connected a trailer for people with disabilities, which the state deemed inappropriate.
Remington would rather see the state allow people with disabilities ride a golf cart to get to the site. He also wants the state to allow for special permits to drive to the great camp, something he said the Galusha settlement allows for until the horse and wagon is up and running.
“It’s not fair,” Remington said. “They spent all kinds of money on this stuff, and it just doesn’t work out. The horse and wagon, it’s a nice idea, but how many people haul a wagon around with a horse nowadays?” He’s mulling suing if access isn’t available this upcoming spring.
Jason Thurston, chair of the advisory committee, could also not be reached Thursday.
The 3,500-pound wagon, which Remington said DEC purchased for $37,000, can accommodate “13 people in forward-facing seats, five wheelchairs or a combination thereof,” according to the DEC. “Wheelchairs will be secured to specially designed tracks in the wagon floor like those found in many buses, to provide a safe, secure and enjoyable ride.” The DEC did not respond to verify the cost of the wagon.
Joe Zalewski, DEC’s director of Region 5, said the new request for information “will allow DEC to explore all of our options regarding this service, including learning about potential vendors, the needs and interests of the disabled community, and how we can continue to offer this accessible option in a reliable way in keeping with the character of the area.”
Depending on the responses from this solicitation of feedback, the DEC may release a request for quotations or bids at a later date, according to its proposal.
To view the RFI go to https://dec.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/RFI_Camp%20Santanoni%202024.pdf. Comments should be sent to the DEC by Feb. 23 to Comment.WagonRFI@dec.ny.gov or to NYSDEC, C/O Robert Ripp, Forester Re: Santanoni RFI, 1115 State Route 86, PO Box 296 Ray Brook, NY 12977-0296.
Top photo: In 2023, DEC purchased a new wagon with seats of two different sizes, supported by posts, and which can be reconfigured in the bed of the wagon. The maximum seating will accommodate 13 people in forward facing seats, five wheelchairs, or a combination thereof. Photo courtesy of the NYSDEC’s request for information document
Editor’s note: This story was updated to include information from the wagon operator.
God, why do these people make it so hard for someone with a disability? What is the “Big Deal”. To allow someone with a disability to use a vehicle so they to can enjoy this setting. Crazy.
This is one sided reporting and completely unfair. This is a half story at best. Larry Newcombe has been forced to jump through new hoops yearly just to be “awarded” the contract. Every year the same drawn out DEC process with 11th hour approval of a contract. Also not mentioned is Larry waiting several months to receive payment from contracted work.
PLEASE if you are going to write a story, do the work. Interview all parties involved. Shame on all involved in this injurious act.
Hi. Larry Newcombe does s fantastic job the guy who has bern bringing people into Santonni for the last several years. Why wasn’t he mentioned in the article. He is a stand up man doing an incredible job.
Thank you
The current operator Larry Newcomb does a really great job with this trip, I would suggest you get his side of the story , there is a lot more going on here than you have reported. Please get ALL the facts before printing these one sided articles
No one seems to mention that the weight of this vehicle is too much for two horses to safely pull up the hills in this road. Or the fact that it places the handicap people on this wagon in danger if the horses fall or stumble trying to.
No horseman who values his animals, and the safety of his riders would attempt to try and pull this vehicle.
Why not use some kind of tractor to pull the new wagon and save the horses backs!!
Generally motorized vehicles are verboten on that trail (see wild, forever)
Lets be a responsible journalist and give the whole story. Its not against people with handicaps. Many have taken the ride in on the wagons that Larry has now. This is DEC not doing their homework being building something that is dangerous then trying to force a person to use it without consideration for the safety of the animals and the riders.
See discussion in town of newcomb board minutes/agenda. This was the current operators comment (p19). Town supervisor at one meeting commented that 3500lb was more than the weight of a chevy equinox (they just bought a couple). Scroll to bottom page in the link (the topic also came up at an earlier meeting) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Mt7NxCVWQKFGHxqfdVCZGlFEVe4gUd0H/view
This article should be pulled, and there should be a rebuttal to this, with both sides of the story explained, and there should also be a public form for people who do currently go up the trail, and experience the hardships of the road and know that it is a topic for conversation Rather than pushing policies because of public interest to save face! Larry newcombe is an amazing human being that would go beyond any requirement or expectation you put in front of him to make sure every rider has the best and most pleasurable experience at the great camp. Shame on whoever is pushing these kinds of defamation of character. Knowing Larry, and knowing this issue, one would think that the Horsemen pulling the wagons would be involved with specifications, such as weight and trail requirements. in such situation could one imagine if in a horrible instance, the horse got away and started pulling the wagon while a rider is strapped down to a multi thousand pound moving projectile through the woods not a good idea they make multiple handicapped accessible options for such as this. Seems to me like the state spent a lot of money on something they didn’t contact anyone or have any advisement on how to build.
A “big disappointment” this article is a BIG DISAPPOINTMENT! Was the person who was contracted to give these rides and use this wagon ever consulted with before building it? Not only is this wagon extremely heavy for a 2 horse hitch to pull it’s very tall which will hit numerous branches on the ride in which sounds enjoyable. Let’s also think of this scenario.. it’s bear country up there correct.. well let’s strap a bunch of handicap people’s wheels chairs to a wagon being pulled by thousand pound animals and let’s just say a bear jumps out in front of these huge horse and they get scared and take off… would you want to be strapped down to that wagon with no way to get off?? Crashing though the woods with zero control over the situation. Sounds wonderful right!? Do you think the man contracted to do these ride is refusing to pull this enormous wagon for the hell of it or maybe he is thinking of the safety of his animals that he cares for and the safety of everyone on his wagon!!!
My response in a private message after Ruth Olbert’s post to Basil Sego
“Basil,
Hope this finds you and family well.
My comments to you and DEC as a whole regarding the wagon issue:
1. When I saw the wagon I stated oh my word does DEC now have a tractor to pull that into the farm of Santanoni
2. I was informed the wagon was for Larry’s hitches to transport “handicapped” folks
3. My concerns regarding this wagon is Saftey for
A. The people
B. The hitch
C. The driver
4. I reflect back on the Lake George boating accident where the seniors traveled to the area and took the boat that had been renovated. If you recalled many died. The weight of the boat was not recalculated A. For the increase weight of renovations done B. Weight of the Now average person now is much more when the boat was originally made
C. Now add above factor and weight of wheel chairs, walkers, lock down as the investigation showed the boat was overloaded
5. My question as a tax payer was Larry or anyone who owns draft animals consulted before it was built?
6. I belong to a few draft animal associations and I brought it up at the meetings showing them the wagon and asked if any would take their drafts and hitch to this wagon. Unanimously the answer was NO.
Would require multiple hitches probably similar to how Budweiser does their hitches. All felt the design was top heavy.
Basil these are folks who have driven since they were little on family farms some of the folks are in their 80’s or pushing 80’s with lots of years experience.
7. When my girls were growing up a new playground was built at their school. Long and short 40+ yrs ago, the playground had to be built handicapped accessible. The entire multilevel school in greenfield center is all ramps. The school families and children helped build with the building of this playground. 1st error they didn’t consult the handicapped. When they 1st designed the sandbox for a w/c person there was no stop at end of ramp and second a w/c could not fit under the sand box as the base was not extended to accommodate the wheels in the front.
8. It’s a wonderful idea for inclusion of all people to enjoy the beautiful and rich history of Santanoni. Safety has to be first and foremost
Thank you for taking the time to read this. Larry has been a great asset to our little town of Newcomb which has a positive cascading affect on our little dinner. Folks grab breakfast before they ride in and the dinner has packed lunches to take in on the wagon to enjoy on the beautiful connecting porches to take in the beauty and history
Monica”
An other personal concern is the width of the road and condition. Where is the safety for those who walk or bike in some with camping supplies being pulled behind their bikes. Also the height of the wagon.
There is not a lot of folks out there to drive their truck/wagon/hitches drive to Newcomb to offer these great trips into Santanoni and go back in history.
DEC does not always the owners to camp by the shop any more. It’s a huge expense to bring everything with them. Don’t forget all that needs to go on the horse to pull or a team of oxen. Larry went as far to buy property in Newcomb to set up a place to stay/live /corral his team.
? What is a resolution if wagon should tip over and folks are locked down and can’t get out. Who will be responsible the state/people of NY since DEC owns the wagon. That liability should NoT and CAN NOT be put on the driver.
Shame on DEC/Goverment
I rode and drove my horse into Santanoni for over 25 years. I agree totally with all the above comments: new wagon is too heavy too tall and not safe on a forested road (as it should remain). It belongs on a paved level road. I imagine most people want an authentic experience! Larry and his predecessors (And I’ve known them all) Go out of their way to make that happen. I know many persons with disabilities that have been able to enjoy the ride in including my sister who had a stroke. She would never have allowed herself to be strapped in! I have also gone in with a friend that has limited use of her legs. We took our kayaks with Larry. She was very grateful for his support.
In Larry’s wagon everyone visits all the way in and out. When I have gone in I learn of new places to hike, bike, paddle, and ride. Santanoni road is one of the few trails left that is safe for horses. In closing yes please get all the facts from experienced horse people including horse people with disabilities.
Yes, sadly the DEC. And misinformed people that are missing the point about access for those people that can not make the trip with their disability.
I agree, ” the wagon is inadequate “. The point is people suffering from a disability not being able to access this location. “Forever wild ” does not mean anyone with a disability should be excluded from enjoying this location. Obviously people are concerned about the weight and poor construction of the wagon. Also the stress on the animals drawing the wagon. Forever wild is nonsense, when directed at a person with special needs.
Been into Santanoni several times with Larry and the horses. Sit in the front with Larry driving the horses and you will quickly realize what is at stake and responsibilities. Larry is a great personal person. Shared some stories with him and no doubt he bends over backsword’s to help people into and out of the camp. Especially people who may have been injured or hurt. Six miles back in the middle of nowhere, little cell service. A good steward of the land and camps, he keeps an eye on the place. Larry deserves praise and acknowledgement. The proof is in the pudding. People might not want to bite the hand that feeds them with Santanoni. Good luck trying to find some one to replace Larry.
It would be interesting to know who initiated this article, the same day as the RFI was released?
To All that have responded above, please be advised that your Genuine comments are not being registered with DEC.
Not meaning to make more work, but your Noteworthy insights will be Better Served by registering your Fine comments , placing them to – comment.wagonrfi@dec.ny.gov
The coincidence of this unvetted article being released at the same time of the RFI release, stinks of a self serving / save your butt DEC position to have you respond to the Explorer and not register pertinent feedback to the proper Avenue.
Let’s not play into their hand – please take the time to rewrite your feedback and Hopefully it will receive a degree of Consideration .
Thank you
Having hiked the road/trail many times I can’t image hauling nearly 3 tons up/down those steep hills with a truck; none the less a pair of horses. Anyone who has walked back to the camp can tell you there are three major hills that are steep, have loose dirt, washed out parts and big rocks … people crash their bikes on the hills every year because of the unevenness and can’t image the strain it would put on horses if the wagon itself weighs 3500 plus a bunch of power wheel chairs that weigh over 250lbs themself not accounting for the weight of the users…. the weight and safety concerns add up fast! Horses will stop pulling when the weight gets too much! Horse and light weight wagons have been used for over 20 years helping people who don’t want to walk it, aren’t able to walk it and want to bring camping cargo back and simple solutions have worked all along to ensure everyone who wants to get back can! The wheelchair ramps weren’t finished until end of September this year leaving less than 2 weeks of the season yet the story paints as if it’s the wagon that prevented them from being used … they weren’t fully constructed until after the major flood that took resources away from them being worked on. Ask any local and they know that Larry has put in hours of work at the great camp from mowing the lawns to make it look nicer , spending his down time to give tours when interns aren’t available and spending hours getting campers out this summer when floods happened and the bridges were at risk for getting swept away.
Simple local solutions can go a long way versus threats of sueing and thousands of doors being spent
Larry Newcombe would take very good care of anyone with disabilities that wanted a ride into Santanoni on his wagon. Many of my family members, including my 85 year old mother-in-law, have made the trip. The state obviously did not do their homework before purchasing this wagon, and the author of this article also did not do her homework before publishing. I assume the latter will be rectified with an apology and correction!
Leave it to the dumb liberals in albany to thing a horse or even a team of horses could pull that over weight piece of crap!
Allow disabled to drive a vehicle or state funded golf carts or all terrain vehicles.Never any realistic solutions from the State.
The article in Adirondack Explorer about the proposed wagon for disabled to use to access Santanoni Great Camp should be retracted as should the actions of NYS DEC against Larry Newcombe. Apologies to Larry are in order.
DEC’s proposed wagon is not at all compatible for use on the road/trail to Santanoni Great Camp. I have been a regular user of that trail for 30 years. I see the great care Larry Newcombe takes to successfully convey visitors back and forth. Larry carefully traverses an already-compromised trail while also dodging hikers and bicyclists. He provides a much needed and desirable way for ALL people to visit OUR camp.
I also see the degradation to the road/trail caused by recent years of construction traffic AND the DEC ferrying themselves back and forth in pickup trucks and cars. Years ago it was very rare to see gas-powered vehicles along the road/trail, especially past the Farm House Complex.
DEC’s wagon is too heavy and too big for the trip to the Great Camp. Never mind the weight of up to five wheelchairs! Riders would be put in an UNSAFE situation.
You need to ameliorate the damage that has been done to Larry’s business and to his reputation. Anything less is unacceptable.
To: NYS DEC
Comment.WagonRFI@dec.ny.gov
From: David Olbert, Cloudsplitter Outfitters LLC
Subject: Access to Great Camp Santanoni
Date: January 31. 2024
I am writing this letter in support of Larry Newcombe’s perspective on the use of the DEC built wagon for disabled guest transportation to Great Camp Santanoni. Larry has provided safe and reliable access to the Great Camp for more than 10 years. He has an impeccable safety record and has transported several visitors with disabilities including those confined to a wheelchair.
Larry is a horseman. He understands what horses are capable of and invests considerable time and resources to make sure his team and equipment is reliable and safe for the service. The proposed wagon that DEC is trying to force Larry to pull is not safe for a two-horse team. It is too heavy, too high, and too wide. Any other user would need to go off the road to get past the proposed wagon.
DEC has threatened Larry with termination of his contract and “additional legal remedies for breach of contract”. He has also been threatened with “being deemed as a non-responsible vendor”, which would prevent him from providing the same service outside the DEC contract.
Mistakes have been made by DEC and Larry that has led to this impasse. Resolving the problem without threatening Larry should be the priority. Larry has been treated poorly in the past on a variety of service issues and this needs to stop. He is an honest hard-working person who provides the service out of his love for Santanoni, horses, and the pleasure derived from caring for his guests.
Unless you have run an equine small business it’s hard to conceptualize the financial, physical, and mental demands. Insurance, Veterinarian care, feed, boarding, equipment repairs, and transportation cost are some of the challenges Larry faces. He has taken as few as 2 guests in for a total of $80.00 under the DEC contract. How many people would do that for 8+ hours of work. When the Request for Information deadline passes, we will find out just how hard it is to attract a quality horseman to provide this service under the specified terms.
Sincerely,
Dave Olbert
Dave Olbert, Thank you for writing clearly what everyone needs to understand about what has been going on.
Thank you,
Judy Morris
We need a wagon, not the Titanic.
When is the State ever going to learn.
In Sept. 2019 my sister and I signed up for the wagon trip which advertised handicap accessibility. While our wagon trip was wonderful, interaction with Mr. Newcombe was less than cordial. My sister is 10 years older than me. She is not wheelchair bound but does have trouble with challenging stairs. There was a large group with this trip. It involved the large trailer and a smaller trailer hitched behind. Getting on the large trailer utilized one portable step (a tool box) then step from there to the hitch of the second trailer. The final step to the bed of the trailer was more that she could handle without assistance which thankfully was given by another passenger. For the rest of the trip, I tried to ask questions about the team and was given terse one- or two-word answers. A passenger across from me was met with so much more engaging conversation. My sister stayed on the trailer during the rest of the tour to avoid another loading/unloading problem. Upon return, while the horses were being tended to back at their trailer, I walked over to give Mr. Newcomb a tip and thank him. The mumbled answer was, “At least I don’t have to worry about my insurance!”